#105 - Gray Divorce and Retirement: Redefining Your Life and Identity

Eric Blake: Welcome to another episode of the Simply Retirement Podcast. I am your host, Eric Blake, practicing retirement planner for over 25 years, founder of Blake Wealth Management, and I would not be the man I am today without the women in my life.

On today's episode, I'm joined by Oona Metz, licensed clinical social worker, certified group psychotherapist, therapist, writer, and speaker.

Oona works with women navigating divorce and other major life transitions. She leads multiple divorce support groups, trains other clinicians on how to guide women through this process, and writes extensively on divorce, group therapy, and parenting.

Today, we're going to talk about the emotional side of divorce, how women begin to rediscover who they are, and why this transition often connects directly to retirement, identity, and what comes next.

Oona, welcome to the Simply Retirement Podcast.

Oona Metz: Thank you so much for having me. I've really been looking forward to our conversation today.

Eric Blake: Me as well. I've had a chance, as I was researching for this conversation, I found so many really cool topics that I wanted to make sure I asked you about.

But before we dive in, I wanted to share something you wrote. It's actually a blog post on your site that really stood out because it's actually something I bring up quite a bit. And that is that you said, "In some ways, life will return to normal, but not the normal of the past. This will be a new normal."

That's right. And I think that really captures what so many women experience, especially with gray divorce, when the transition is happening in your 50s or 60s or even just right alongside retirement. Because at that point, it's not just about the relationship that's changing, of course. It's about your own identity, your plans, and what that next chapter might actually look like.

So I'd really like to start there and just get your... What led you to this work, and what drew you specifically to supporting women going through divorce?

Oona Metz: Great. So I've been a therapist right outside of Boston for the last 30 years, and about 16 or 17 years ago, I went through my own divorce. I looked around and I thought, "Gosh, I'd really love to be part of a support group with other women who have gone through it."

And there were no support groups available at that time. I was already trained in group therapy and leading groups of women myself, so I thought, "You know, this is a good idea."

A couple years later, when I had enough time away from my divorce, I started these divorce support groups for women. Fifteen years later, I have three weekly groups that meet every single week, same time, same day, for 15 years.

It's just been incredible to see the amount of growth and connection that comes out of those groups. And what you were talking about, that sense of a new identity that forms oftentimes after divorce, where people really have a chance to think about, "Okay, here's the next chapter. How do I want this next chapter to look?"

Eric Blake: Right. Well, can you talk about that? What is it about being in a group with other women going through that same experience that can be so powerful?

Oona Metz: Well, I think for so many women, divorce feels very isolating. I have women who come to me all the time and they say, "How is it possible that half of marriages end in divorce, and I don't know anyone going through it?"

I think it's still, even today, something that's not talked about enough. So I think the sense of connection and not being alone is one of the primary things that happens in the group. They walk into the room and they're like, "Oh my goodness, look at all of these people." And these are all wonderful, successful, attractive, smart people in the group.

So they walk in and they're kind of worried, "Oh, maybe I'm going to walk into a group of losers or something," right? Because they feel terrible about themselves. But then they come into the group and they realize, "Wow, this is a group of really strong women." And they're happy to be part of that.

Eric Blake: So when you're putting these groups together, are they the same demographics? Are they age-wise, experience? What's... How do you decide who goes in which group?

Oona Metz: You know, I wish I could say there's this one group that's all gray divorce, and there's this one group where everybody experienced infidelity or whatever. But really what it comes down to is people's schedules, frankly.

Eric Blake: Right? That's probably as good as anything, right?

Oona Metz: Right, right, right. But it's also nice to have the mix in the room. I think I really come from this idea that every marriage and every divorce is unique. There are these very common themes that connect people.

So the commonalities are really the feelings that people are having. Nobody's going to walk into the support group and somebody has the exact same story as them, but as they're talking about their story and they're talking about the feelings, you can see the women around the room nodding. "Oh yeah, I felt that way. I felt that way. Oh my God, I felt exactly that way," even though they weren't married to the same person.

Sometimes they say, "I think we were all married to the same person." That hasn't happened yet. That's probably frequent. But if it does, then we're going to have to have a reality show, right?

Eric Blake: Well, from your experience, what are some of the most common emotional challenges you see women facing as they go through divorce? And then, as kind of a continuation of that, for women who are more in that retirement phase, do you see anything different for them?

Oona Metz: Yeah. I mean, I think for women who are facing a gray divorce, one of the things that can be very difficult is when the divorce coincides with the last child going off to college.

So they're not only facing the divorce, but also the empty nest. And talk about a change in identity. If you've built your identity largely around being a mom and being married and being part of an intact family, it can be a real blow to somebody's identity, leaving them feeling like, "Who am I? What role am I supposed to..."

And of course, you're still a mom when your kids go off to college, but you're a different kind of mom.

And then I think just so much uncertainty. Divorce oftentimes takes a long time, the legal process, to get through. Not knowing if you're going to be able to stay in your house, if you're going to have to get a different job or go back to work, or if you have enough saved for retirement. All of those things, I also think, can create so much anxiety for people. Just that level of uncertainty and not knowing what's going to come next. So that piece is really hard, too.

Eric Blake: Right. When you wrote a book, Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, which walks women through the entire divorce journey, what made you feel like women needed that type of roadmap, and what do you hope they gain from it as they go through this process?

Oona Metz: Oh, that's a great question, Eric. So as I was leading these support groups for women, the women in the groups kept asking me for books. They said, "I want a book that really talks about the emotional journey, and it's great coming to the group. But during the week when we're not at the group, we want a book that we can read."

I looked at all the literature, and I realized that there wasn't a book by a therapist for women on the emotional journey of divorce. And so that's really when I decided that I wanted to write this book because there's so much useful information that's come out of my work, and I just wanted to share it with a larger population.

So this book really walks people from the very, very beginning of making the decision, or having the decision made for you, all the way through the messy middle and to the end, and to dating after divorce and a new identity after divorce. So it really takes you kind of step by step through the whole thing.

Eric Blake: And would you say that, for the purposes of somebody reading it, is it a, "I just sit down and read it in one sitting?" Is it something like, "Hey, this is a reference that I can come back to when I have questions?" What's the best use of the book itself?

Oona Metz: Yeah, that's a great question.

Some people have told me they sat down, they started on page one, and they just zoomed right through it to the very end. But it's also structured in such a way that people could... Say they're worried about their kids. They can just flip straight to the chapter on kids and get plenty out of it.

Or maybe they're in the very, very beginning stages, and so they read the beginning chapters, and they're not ready to move on to the other chapters. Or perhaps they have gone through the divorce, but there's still kind of some emotional hangover, so to speak, or they may be ready to date.

So they get the book and they're like, "I don't need to read anything about telling my friends. All I really want to read about is dating after divorce and creating a new identity," and so they flip right to the back.

The book is designed in that way. It's also got tons of vignettes in it, so you can read about other people's stories and not feel so alone.

Eric Blake: Well, I think one of the interesting things is that in the work we do, we work with a lot of women who have gone through, sometimes it's divorce, a lot of times it's being a widow. And one of the biggest things I wanted to bring through this podcast is resources.

Because especially financially, there's all the challenges of, "I just didn't know that. I didn't know that about Social Security, that I had all these different things I needed to think about."

Oona Metz: Yeah.

Eric Blake: So that's one of the things I was so excited about having you on, is for that exact purpose of just resources. How can we get these resources out there so people know about them?

Can you just talk about that in itself? How important is it to know what resources are out there to help women move forward?

Oona Metz: Oh, it's so important. And I think one of the things I've noticed, and I'd be curious if you've seen this too, but I would say maybe five or eight years ago, there was very little out there about divorce when you looked online and things like that.

And now I feel like there's this flood, and it's almost like there's too much information out there. Some of it is good, and some of it's not great. So it's hard to sift through.

So it's really important to find somebody that you trust, that you can really trust to help guide you. I have a huge resource section in the back of the book, and then also on my website, which is oonametz.com, I have a ton of free resources on my website to help walk you through the financial part, the legal part, but mostly the emotional part.

Eric Blake: Hey everyone, it's Eric. Hope you're enjoying today's episode. I want to take just a quick moment to share a resource I think you'll find valuable.

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Now, back to the episode.

Well then, yeah, and that's what I find so challenging for many of the women that we work with and people that I know listen to the podcast itself, is just how do you filter through all this stuff?

Oona Metz: Yeah.

Eric Blake: Especially on the financial side because divorce is one of those unfortunate situations where the emotions and the finances clash.

Oona Metz: That's right.

Eric Blake: And then you throw on top of that, when you're in your 50s or 60s, "I've got retirement." As you talked about, the empty nest. It just seems so overwhelming.

So having a resource like your book, or even the work that you're doing through the group training and those types of things, is so valuable.

Oona Metz: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I always say, when stress goes up, cognition goes down.

So, for instance, the people we're seeing in our office may be extremely bright, extremely well-educated people, but when they're in the midst of an emotional crisis, their brain is just... And this would happen to you or I. Their brain is just not functioning as well as it can be when they're in a state of calm.

So a lot of pieces of the book are, "How do you regulate your nervous system so that you can calm down, so that you can actually understand?"

I do a lot of trainings also for attorneys and financial professionals about how to work with women going through divorce. Really suggesting that they slow down, that they check in frequently about whether or not somebody's understanding something.

I think also sometimes professionals get into this thing where they're using the language that they always use, but the layperson doesn't know what you're talking about. So trying to use plain language, I think, is also important.

Eric Blake: You mean they might not understand marginal tax brackets? Is that what you're saying?

Oona Metz: I have no idea what... I've never even heard of a marginal tax bracket, much less understanding what it is. I'll send you an email on that one.

Don't worry. Oops, delete. Oops.

Eric Blake: So that jumps me to a question I did want to ask because, in my role as a financial advisor, especially if we're working with somebody through divorce or widowhood, again, it's not just financial, it's emotional.

There's no way of really pulling the emotions out, and that's where I hope to be a resource as we're walking alongside those women, to be somebody they can turn to, to hopefully provide the effective guidance that they're looking for.

So from your perspective, how can someone like me be better at supporting women going through this? Not just the financial side, but what that takes, just the emotional side too. We have to make sure we account for that.

What can I do to better support women?

Oona Metz: Yeah. So I think a lot of women have a lot of shame about their lack of knowledge about money.

There are plenty of women who are the ones running the bills and making the money, and then they'd have less shame. But I think when it comes to women who have husbands who have taken the financial reins, I think they come in oftentimes with a lot of shame and sometimes don't even want to admit what they don't know.

So I think trying to use statements that really reduce shame for women is really important. Like saying, "Of course you don't know that, and you're not expected to know that. Look at all the other talents you have, and you had a marriage in which you took care of these things, and your spouse took care of these things. So it makes sense that you wouldn't know.

"You don't need to go out and get an MBA right now. I'm here to help you. We just need to make a few decisions that are really going to set you up for your future.

"I'm not going to ask you to figure out what a... What did you say? A marginal tax bracket."

Eric Blake: Marg... I could throw other examples out if you'd like. We don't have to use that one.

Oona Metz: Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to ask you to figure out what a marginal tax bracket is.

But I want to just acknowledge how many talents you have. You're hiring... I often say this to women. They're like, "I don't know what to do financially. I'm not sure."

And I say, "Let me ask you a question. Do you do your own plumbing at home?"

"No. God, I would never."

"Do you do your own electrical work?"

"God, no, I would never do that."

"So you hire out for that, right?"

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."

"Okay. So you don't have to go get an MBA so that you understand the world of finance. This is something that people can hire somebody for, and it will probably save you money if you hire somebody who's good, who will actually make a good plan for you and save you money.

"So it's okay that you don't know all of these things, and you don't have to go learn them all right now. You just have to find somebody that you really trust."

Eric Blake: Part of the reason I ask that question is simply because I've got an example client right now who, it's the typical scenario. She got divorced. Her divorce was probably a year and a half ago or so.

She was in that unfortunate situation where she never felt comfortable with the advisor, with the conversations with her husband. She said she always felt stupid. "If I asked a question, I felt stupid. If I didn't ask the question..." You know, all those unfortunate situations.

And one of the things I found is here recently, she's gotten so excited about learning new stuff on the financial side of things.

Oona Metz: Yep.

Eric Blake: She forwards me Facebook videos of Roth conversions and required distributions and all those terms that I enjoy.

And she's like, "Well, shouldn't we be thinking about this?"

And my goal with her is not to slow her down at all in the excitement that she's got about learning this stuff.

Oona Metz: No, she's getting empowered.

Eric Blake: Exactly. So let's put in perspective, though, when they say, "You got to do it now," typically that doesn't mean you have to do it now.

So let's talk about it. Let's talk through what this really means, how you might be able to utilize it. But it's so cool to see her be excited about learning this stuff that she didn't really have the opportunity to do so before.

Oona Metz: Yeah, that's great.

Eric Blake: So that's why I wanted to ask you that question because, again, I'm never going to be perfect at this, but I try as hard as I can.

Oona Metz: Yep. No, that's fantastic. And it sounds like an important part of that story is that the divorce was a year and a half ago. Because a year and a half ago, she couldn't do that work, right?

She didn't have the bandwidth to think about that. But now she's kind of gotten through it, and now she's found something that she's kind of excited about, which is so great. And you can partner with her about that.

Eric Blake: Right. Well, and that leads me to my next question.

One of the things that really stood out to me in the work that you do is helping women reconnect to themselves. How often do you see women struggling with that question, "What do I do now?" And how do you help them answer that?

Oona Metz: Yeah, that's such a good question.

I think we are still in a society right now where women are socialized to really think about everybody else. They think about their kids, what their kids need. They think about their spouse, what their spouse needs, their boss, their employees.

We are wired and socialized to think about everybody else. I think divorce really offers an opportunity to really think again about who you are and what you need.

One of my favorite little exercises that I like to do with people is developing with them a small bucket list and a large bucket list.

A large bucket list might be something that's kind of expensive and out of reach, like, "Oh, I always wanted to go to the Alps." Okay, put it on your bucket list. Maybe we can make that happen.

But let's think about the small bucket list too. What's on your small bucket list?

Maybe there's that park that you drive by on your way to work, and you look at it every time and think, "That's a lovely park. I should go there sometime." Let's make a plan for you to go there.

Maybe there's a new restaurant you want to try. Maybe you've always wanted to take a pottery class, but you never put your mind to it or never had time for it. This is the time.

So in terms of doing that little small bucket list, you get to people's identity and what brings them meaning, purpose, and joy in life. So that's a great exercise to go through with people and really helps bring them kind of back to themselves.

Eric Blake: Well, and I think what's interesting is that that is an exact conversation I would hope to have myself with clients because there's so many similarities in terms of just bringing out the emotion, what's really driving you, what drives your decisions, whether it's on the emotional side or just getting to that next phase of life or the financial decision that you make.

How are you going to use your money to do what's important to you, to make these decisions that are often difficult? But as long as you stay focused on what's most important to you...

Oona Metz: Very good chance you're going to make the right decision.

And I'm sure in a lot of your work, you also talk about values. What are your core values in life? What's most important to you? Is it travel? Is it family? Is it being close to your grandkids? Is it further education? Is it leaving a big inheritance?

What are the values that you have in your life, and how can we make those come true?

Eric Blake: Well ultimately, because it's never about the money. Money is just the tool to do these other things or to have these other experiences, to make a difference in somebody's life or to make a difference in your life.

Oona Metz: Yes.

Eric Blake: The money is just the tool. It's not the thing.

Oona Metz: That's right.

Eric Blake: It's not the goal.

Oona Metz: That's right.

Eric Blake: Well actually, one of the things I always like to ask, for somebody who's listening, maybe they feel overwhelmed, especially if life hasn't quite unfolded the way they expected, what would you say about just beginning again?

What is a first step someone could take if they're in that situation where they're feeling some overwhelm or just saying, "Okay, what do I do next?"

Oona Metz: I would say reach out. I would say don't try to do this by yourself.

I think especially for women, so many women feel like, "Okay, I've got this covered. I've been competent so far. I know how to do this. I can just do it on my own. I don't want to ask anybody for help. I don't want to burden anybody else."

But oftentimes it's not a burden when you're asking somebody. A lot of people would love to be in a helpful role to you.

So make sure that you're not going it alone. Make sure that you reach out, whether it's friends, family, professionals, a therapist, to really help you get through if you're overwhelmed.

Eric Blake: Awesome.

Now, you talked about the work that you do with the groups. You talked about some of the work you do with training other professionals to have a better working relationship with women. What other types of services do you offer?

Oona Metz: So I see people individually as well in person in my Boston office.

I lead these groups. Those are all in person too. And then I do training and speaking around the country to professionals, either therapists, financial professionals, or attorneys who are working with divorce professionals.

I'm going to New York in a couple of weeks to do a training and then on to Colorado to do a couple trainings in Colorado in early May.

That's really near and dear to my heart.

Eric Blake: Feel free to share what are the best ways listeners can connect with you, learn more about the work that you're doing, and of course share more about your book.

Oona Metz: Great. So my website is oonametz.com. It's O-O-N-A-M-E-T-Z.com.

As I said, lots of free resources on my website.

The book is Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women. It's available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and a lot of local bookstores. It's available in e-book and audio too, and I did the narration for the audio, or paperback.

So pick your favorite.

Eric Blake: Perfect. Well, I'm an audiobook person, so I may have to... I've got plenty of built-up credits, so I may have to grab that very soon.

Oona Metz: Oh, good, good, good.

Eric Blake: Yeah.

All right, so we'll make sure we include all that in today's show notes.

Oona, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation.

As always, thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in. If you found yourself thinking about your own situation as you were listening today, maybe asking yourself, "What does that next chapter look like for me?" I would definitely encourage you to take the next step and connect with Oona.

Her work, her book, Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, can really help you take that next step. Again, we'll include all those links in the show notes.

That's it for today's episode. For all the links and resources we've talked about today, you can visit thesimplyretirementpodcast.com.

And until next time, please remember, retirement is not the end of the road, it's the start of a new journey.