#125 - Retirement for Women: Identity, Purpose, and Life After Work - Part 1

Eric Blake: Welcome to another episode of the Simply Retirement podcast. I am your host, Eric Blake. On today's show, I am joined by Kelly Ottman. Kelly is a professor and executive leadership coach who recently completed a study on how executives experience the transition into retirement, including some important differences between women and men. Kelly, welcome to the Simply Retirement podcast.

Kelly Ottman: Thank you so much for having me, and I look forward to sharing the research.

Eric Blake: Absolutely. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. You know, you and I talked, I guess it was a few weeks ago now, and I think the research is fascinating, especially for our audience, primarily focused on women. So I'm really excited for you to share the work that you've done and help a lot of folks out there make better decisions when it comes to retirement planning. Now, before we discuss what you've learned, I would love to learn what led you to study executives and the transition into retirement.

Kelly Ottman: Yes, I think that that's important. So I work with executives and executive teams as an executive coach and consultant, and one of the teams I had worked with contacted me and said, "One of our members is looking to retire. Could you please work with her as she transitions into retirement?" And I said, "Wait, wait, wait. I help individuals get into leadership, move up, and in that lonely space at the top, but I don't necessarily help them move out." I said, "You should find somebody who's an expert in that." And they went off, and they looked, and they came back and said, "We couldn't find anybody. Would you work with her? She really wants to work with you."

And so as I did, I started to search, just to back up the work I was doing, to extend my coaching, and I found there wasn't anything out there specific to top leaders or really top professionals transitioning. And so then fast-forward, I had this wonderful opportunity to have a sabbatical from the Milwaukee School of Engineering, where I'm a professor and focus on leadership development there also, and I focused on executives and their journey into retirement. And so that's how I ended up looking at this topic. And what I really found is this is really groundbreaking information, because there's really not a lot out there focused at that level.

Eric Blake: And the rest is history, as they say, right? Which brings you here today.

Kelly Ottman: It is.

Eric Blake: So one of the things I thought was interesting is your research looked at a 10-year window, the five years before retirement and the five years after. And that's actually something that, to me as a financial planner, those are those really critical periods of decision-making, especially from a financial perspective. But I'm assuming you're going to share that it's also important from an emotional and a transition perspective as well. When you brought all that information together, what is it that surprised you most about the research that you did?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah, can I just back up a moment and just talk a little bit about the framework of the research, because I think that will be helpful. So I looked at that window of five years before and then five years after, and I surveyed executives. And, excuse me, I first actually started with an interview. So I interviewed 35 executives, and those interviews lasted anywhere from an hour and a half to three hours, so I learned so much about that journey. And half of the individuals were pre-retirement, and half were post-retirement.

And then I took all of that, and I looked for the key lessons, and I used that and created a survey, and the survey was really to validate those 35 individuals. And so I surveyed over 120 people, again, about half pre-retirement, half post-retirement, and really looked at how do we bring that together to really create a complete picture of retirement for executives? Now, I know who the executives are who I interviewed, but I keep their identities confidential. I actually don't know who all the individuals are who were completing the surveys.

Eric Blake: Okay.

Kelly Ottman: And they were really the top leaders from across the country. So most were face-to-face interviews, but some were virtual.

Eric Blake: So out of curiosity, before we go on, was it people that volunteered to participate in the survey? Were they people you reached out to? Where did the audience come from?

Kelly Ottman: Right. So I'll start with the interviews. They really came from my network, and then my network reached out to their network, and so it continued to grow. And then actually, I had only planned, for survey validity purposes, to have 20 interviews, and it blossomed to 35, and I just had to stop. And so it was wonderful, because people kept calling, and still to this day, like, "I'm ready to do your interview."

What I learned is they had never talked about the non-financial part of their retirement. And so once the word got out, they were like, "Oh, go talk to her," because it's fascinating to talk about this. There are things you've never thought about. And I think that's one of the surprises from this, is that people had not thought about, much less communicated about, those topics. And then the surveys, again, I just put the word out through LinkedIn and through my networks, and that's how I obtained the participants.

Eric Blake: That's awesome. And so now, as we kind of get into the nuts and bolts of what you found out and how it impacts our audience, I think one of the really interesting things that you brought up when we first spoke, and what I want to ask you about here, is one of the comments you heard was that retirement is easier for women. But your findings also showed that easier doesn't always mean easy, and I think from what you just said, that's probably an accurate statement. What did you learn about the difference?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah. So I'm again going to just talk a little bit about the framework. So when I first started, individuals made the assumption I was only going to interview men, and that was interesting in and of itself, that this was only applying to men. And yes, indeed, there isn't necessarily parity in the C-suite, but as a past executive, so I was a healthcare executive and I left that role, I knew what it was like to leave a top position. And I work with a lot of women in my work.

I really wanted to understand this, both from the male perspective as well as the female perspective. So I was very intentional about having 50/50 in my participants. And in my interviews, I would end the interview with, "So is there a difference between how men experience retirement and how women do?" And it was interesting. Women would very quickly say yes, and they would go on to share, "Well, you know, throughout our life we've worn multiple hats, so it's easy. You know, we were the PTA leader. We were the carpool leader. We were the soccer mom. We volunteered as well as our corporate role."

So they had many identities, which helped them move into retirement. If you lost one identity, it wasn't as traumatic. They also said because of all that, they had a lot of people in their network. So their circle of friends was not limited to their circle of friends at work. So they really said it was structural, cultural, social, that it was easier for them. It wasn't about who they were as individuals. It was about the structure of being a woman, if you will, socially.

Then when I asked the men, they would look and, like, "Hmm." And I learned to just pause and have a long pause.

Eric Blake: Which can be hard, right?

Kelly Ottman: It was. They couldn't think of anything. They're like, "Hmm." And then all of a sudden they'd go, "Oh, wait, Sally. Yeah, Sally. Sally did it this way." And they would explain how Sally did it. And what I learned was that they didn't have a lot of reference points. They didn't know a lot of women in top leadership roles who had retired, which actually goes back to how women felt. They felt that they were pioneers. There weren't a lot out there to role model against.

And so the men, after they had thought about it and named the person that they maybe knew, would then talk about themselves and how it was difficult for them because they didn't have a lot of other identities. Their circle of friends was smaller, and so they concluded, "Yes, women have it easier." So both women and men concluded, "Yes, women have it easier." However, once I really started to stratify and dig into the data, what I found is maybe it's easier, but it's not easy. It's not easy for women, and it's not easy for very different reasons.

And part of those reasons are linked to how hard it was for them to reach those pinnacle positions and, as a result of that, the loss that they would have in leaving those pinnacle positions. And so I think that was one of the challenges that really emerged with this. It really helped me to see, as far as coaching, financial coaching as well as coaching like I do, which is retirement coaching, or what I consider the leadership development lifespan, coaching across that lifespan into and through retirement, because many of them take on new leadership roles, but they don't look the same, that we need to understand one size does not fit all.

And I've heard some of your podcasts, and you very clearly talk about that, that you work with the individual and there isn't a one size fits all. But I would say even more so, we can't assume what works for maybe a male population works the same for a female population. And so I love that you specialize in this area of your work.

Eric Blake: So it'd be interesting, from a coach's perspective then, because one of the things, to your point, I talk about a lot is it's very difficult for a financial planner or financial advisor to work with everybody, because the decisions that you're making when you're 35 are not the same decisions you're making when you're 65. Do you see that in your world of coaching? Do you feel like it's a challenge to work with the younger demographic versus somebody who's now in this very near retirement phase, and how they think about things or how you communicate as a coach? Does that change, or is it something you feel like, as a coach, it's not quite as difficult as I might think it might be?

Kelly Ottman: I think that the factors are definitely different, and I think that's because of just the worlds that I live in, both as a professor, where I get to work with emerging leaders and, you know, individuals using new technology, and they have new images of what leadership might look like to those individuals across that leadership lifespan. They are such different issues, but I think I've been working across that span for so long and now adding this. But I do think that they are very different issues, different ways of coaching individuals across that, because a lot of the early stage is just educating about the leadership and the lifespan development.

And then at the end stage, for me, I think this is also about creating possibilities, possibilities of what life might look like as we move forward. And I think on both ends, as I just met with students at the start of the term now, it's helping them to see that what they think today will probably not be the exact way it will unfold. And I think that that is also true when working with people who are entering retirement. What they think today, we can't make it into a complete, you know, tightly wrapped, put a bow on it picture, because the world around us is going to change.

Our health might change, our families might change. You know, just the world in general might change. We want to travel, but maybe we can't do that anymore. And so I think in both cases, it's helping them understand possibilities, giving them a picture, educating them about this, but then also helping them to understand that it's not set in stone. And that sometimes can be troubling, but it also can be freeing.

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So this is also something I don't think I've asked you when we originally were talking about having you on as a guest, which I'm so excited we did now, because this is really fascinating stuff. But were there any financial components to these surveys or the interviews that you did? Did that come into the conversation? Because I think one of the interesting things that I've experienced as a financial advisor is the challenge of changing the mindset of, "Well, I've worked for the last 40 years saving money for retirement. Now I've got to be willing to spend money in retirement that I've worked so hard for."

And I kind of see some parallels, or some connections, to what you just shared a little bit ago about, "It took me so long to get here, and it's taken me so much work to get here. Now you're telling me I'm not going to be in this position anymore, because I'm retiring."

Kelly Ottman: Yes. Although my study was on the non-financial aspect of it, so I really leave that expertise to you, because that's your expertise. And so actually, this is where, you know, financial planners and advisors can partner with individuals like myself, who really focus on the non-financial. And we don't step on each other's toes. We really complement each other.

But that said, I think that what I found was a couple things. One is that most of the individuals in my study had enough, whatever enough is. And that was very relative. They felt they had enough, and in fact, that was one of the markers of how did you decide when you will retire? And for some of them it was, "I have enough." For some of them it was other markers, like accomplishment of something, and some of them had no choice.

When we look at the planning part of it, the majority of them, but not all of them, had worked with a financial planner and had a written financial plan. And so that was very common. However, not all of them. In fact, fewer women had a written financial plan than the men did. And so I think that's an opportunity for your individuals listening to this podcast. Make sure you're reaching out to a financial planner so you have a written plan, because that helps create some confidence.

Then, looking at the non-financial, less than 25% had a non-financial plan in place, which is where this work comes in. Now, with the individuals that I surveyed, 42% of them said they need to learn how to spend money. Now, remember, they had money.

Eric Blake: Yep.

Kelly Ottman: But they needed to learn how to spend money, and that comfort with it, because it created a lot of anxiety and challenge for them. Now, if they have a financial plan, that helps, because not everybody did. And more women had concerns with spending money than men did.

And I had this wonderful story. I was interviewing one of the executives, and she was a, you know, top executive, and she had just retired, and she was sharing this story that after she retired, she was just so nervous about spending money. And so she met with her financial advisor, who she had worked with, and said, "You know, I'm just really concerned about spending money. There's these shoes I would really like." And he paused and he said, "You can spend money on those shoes, and you've been talking about a new car. Go buy the car, too." And so she went out and she bought the shoes, and she got the car, and, you know, she just needed that confidence.

As I've really dug into this aspect of it a little bit more and looked at other research based on this, intellectually, we know we have enough. You've told us we have enough. It's on the paper, I have enough. But emotionally, it is a scary place. And there's just this lack of confidence because we've saved so much, and so many of the people I talked about, you know, they were frugal. Even though they were top executives, they were frugal along the way. And so spending, they need permission. They need confidence and permission to be able to spend so they can enjoy life. Not that money is the way to enjoy life, but I don't have to have the fear of getting just some things that I really need.

Eric Blake: Right. And I want to get back to the research, because there was one thing that I think is really interesting, and that was one of the things you found, that men often struggle with the loss of prestige.

Kelly Ottman: Yes.

Eric Blake: While women were more likely to struggle with the loss of credibility. How did the women in your study describe that loss of credibility?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah, I think that that's a really interesting aspect of this, because what I found was, and I'm just going to frame this with the bigger picture and then come back to that, is that the top losses that individuals had were the ability to problem solve, the ability to make a difference, relevance, and staying savvy. And so then when I started to dig deeper into some of those conversations that I had with the people I interviewed, what I found was that the men looked at this more from that prestige, because the title gave them, you know, the prestige that they've been working for.

Whereas for women, the credibility, the title opened doors. It gave them voice in meetings. It gave them the ability to problem solve, because I am the vice president, I'm the CEO, I'm the whatever it is. That title was a ticket to voice, meaning now you're going to listen to me because I have that title. But once that title went away, they felt that that voice, or their fear was that voice, would go away also.

And I can say, so I'll go back to my early years. I was a vice president of the largest home care and hospice agency in our state. I was the president of the Association of Healthcare Executives for a while. I had title, right?

Eric Blake: Mm-hmm.

Kelly Ottman: And then I decided I was going to go back to school, and I was going to be a professor, and I got my PhD. However, it was so interesting. I was literally making life-and-death decisions on our state bioethics board and things like that, and then I got into meetings, and they're like, "Hmm, no, you're not really allowed to say anything here." Now, you know, we were making very small decisions. What color should I paint the wall? And somehow or another, I wasn't bright enough. I didn't have voice to share those things.

And so I understand that. I experienced that. And just that, like, "Wow, how did I go from being able to make these decisions," because I had title, "and now not?" And so I think some of the things that the women did were finding ways that they could still have that title, that voice. Many of them sought board positions. Many of them kind of framed how they were going to introduce themselves so they still had that ability to have credibility, to have voice.

Eric Blake: Excellent. Well, just as a follow-on to that, you've already touched on the fact that women often feel they may be better prepared as they transition to retirement because of stronger social networks and, I don't want to say less identity outside of work, but more parts of their identity outside of work. How do some of these strengths that women may have going into retirement maybe help them adjust a little bit easier, or be a little more successful in what they consider a retirement transition?

Kelly Ottman: Part of this is their expectations of what retirement will be and what they're going to do in that. And so I'm going to give you another comparison and frame it in the research. And so men saw what will be success, especially in those first, you know, that honeymoon period. It was, "I'm just releasing. I'm just letting it all go. I'm going to get rid of it. Like, I cannot wait to not have the stress, those meetings," things like that.

So it was release. There was also a little bit of resentment because they don't have some of those things, and a little bit of anger sometimes if they were, you know, let go. Women framed that time period as a time of renewal, repurposing, revitalization, re-looking at themselves. So they understood they would not be the same person in their retirement. They didn't necessarily know what that person would be, but they understood that that was part of that.

And so I think success for women is really about revitalization of self, because many of us, you know, I'm in the same boat. You know, we've been this top leader, but we've also been maybe spouses, moms, and now not only are we retiring, but kids are leaving the house. I lost that identity. I've lost some other identities. You know, maybe my dog died. Okay, so now I don't have a dog anymore. You know, all these things that we lose at this same kind of timeframe. So I get to repurpose, and I don't think that's just for executives. When I talk to individuals, women across the board at this time period, it's really that moment that we get to revitalize and look at the possibilities, those possibilities that I talked about before.

And so what I found was many of them, during that honeymoon period, were very purposeful about taking a solo trip, going on retreat, doing something to recultivate relationships. One I just so love. She's a top executive, and she really wanted to rekindle relationships that, you know, she just didn't have time for before. So she booked train tickets and bus tickets with relatives so she could travel across the country. She knew that they didn't necessarily like going on an airplane, but she figured out how to do it, and so she spent long trips with them rekindling that. So there's many ways we get to do that.

Eric Blake: Mm-hmm.

Kelly Ottman: I'm going to give you a little aside story. I was sharing this with a group of retirees, actually, alumni of my university who had retired. And after the presentation and sharing this part of it, a couple came up, and he was a physician, and she had also retired from a position of significance. And he said, "Thank you. I need to say thank you, because all of my friends give me heck because my wife goes on these solo trips, and they make me feel bad because I'm not going with her, and she really wants to do this. This is going to help our relationship, and this is going to help my friendships, because I won't have guilt. I'll just say, 'You said, and the research says, this is what happens.'" So I think sometimes we have to have permission to do, you know, to restep into this.

Eric Blake: I want to share something with you, because the work that you've done, and why we are, again, so excited to have you on, is because a lot of the things you're talking about, you just brought up the idea that it's not necessarily just limited to executives, right?

Kelly Ottman: No.

Eric Blake: And a lot of our clients that we work with have experienced different types of transitions, whether it's just the retirement from being successful in the business world, but a lot of times it's because of the recent loss of a husband, whether that's through divorce or being widowed. And I can see that the things you're sharing, the ideas, are easily translatable into those other types of life transitions that many women go through. And so I'm really excited that you're sharing this research, because again, I think it applies across the board in many different situations.

So I'm just really excited that you've been able to share this. So Kelly, before we wrap up, this is going to be part one, by the way, part one of our two-part series. Where can listeners learn more about your retirement research and connect with you online?

Kelly Ottman: Yes, please connect with me. You can connect with me on LinkedIn at Kelly Ottman. I have a website that is Leadership Portals. You can find that online, and I look forward to connecting with you.

Eric Blake: Awesome. Well, Kelly, thank you for joining me and sharing your research that tells us about the different ways women and men experience retirement. We will include information about Kelly, her research, and how you can connect with her in the show notes at thesimplyretirementpodcast.com.

In part two, Kelly and I will move from what the research found to what women can do about it. We'll discuss how to prepare for the loss of title, maintain a sense of credibility and purpose, and begin defining retirement on your own terms before you actually leave your career. If you've been thinking about what your life will look like beyond work, or what you can start doing now to be better prepared for the next phase of life, please be sure to join that conversation.

You can follow the podcast so that you stay up to date on future episodes. And until next time, please remember, retirement's not the end of the road, it's the start of a new journey.