#126 - Retirement for Women: Identity, Purpose, and Life After Work - Part 2

Kelly Ottman: That was one of the questions I asked the interviewees, "How do you introduce yourself?" And the pre-retirees were like, "Oh, my gosh, I hadn't thought about that." The people who had retired, they're like, "Oh, my gosh, that was such a challenge, and I am still trying to figure it out." Then when I started to look at their LinkedIn, not even a handful of them had retired on their LinkedIn.

Eric Blake: Welcome to another episode of the Simply Retirement Podcast. I am your host, Eric Blake. On today's show, I am joined again by Kelly Ottman. Kelly is a professor and executive leadership coach who is returning for part two of our conversation on her research on identity and the transition into retirement.

Kelly, welcome back to the Simply Retirement Podcast.

Kelly Ottman: Thank you so much for having me. I just really appreciate the focus of your work on women, because I think there's such a void with this, and so thank you for addressing this.

Eric Blake: Um, I appreciate you sharing that. That's my story, and, uh, as with a lot of the things you shared in episode one, I can think about how it has impacted the women in my life. My mom, who's, you know, in this transition into retirement and trying to figure out how she's going to make it work. I just think there's so much valuable information that you've shared through your research.

And then today, we're just going to take it to that next level of, how can we actually take this information that you shared in episode one and take action on it? How can we actually implement this into our own life, or how can women implement it in their own life to make a more successful transition into retirement? I wanted to ask you first, before we get into some of those action items, but after spending so much time listening to people before and after retirement, how did this research change the way you think about and prepare for your own retirement?

Kelly Ottman: You know, I've been thinking about that a lot. I've been spending about a year really collecting and analyzing the data. It took me over half a year just to collect the data, more than that actually, and then to analyze it. And as I listened to the stories, it made me pause to think, "What does this mean for me?"

Um, from multiple perspectives, what does it mean for me as I prepare for this inevitable change? And actually look forward to it. It's not something to dread, and I think so many people had that dread of, how do I say that? But then people ask me the question, you know, "When are you going to retire?" And I think much like many of the women, and individuals in my study, but particularly women, it's about recreating yourself.

And so thinking about how will I recreate myself, still keeping my core values, my core purpose, which is to help individuals, groups, and organizations reach their own unique potential. That helps me reach mine. How do I recreate this in my future? I think this is part of what I will be doing in that recreation, really extending my leadership development lifespan to have this focus on individuals in retirement.

Uh, and retirement doesn't mean, you know, sitting on a couch or sitting along a pool and just hanging out or just sitting at the beach. That is not me. So we're not going to change who we are significantly in our retirement. I'm active. I'm social. That's not going to change when I retire. But what I focus on, how my passions play out, that will change, and I think that's important. I'll share some more actually as we go forward of how I will be doing this also and how this is influencing me, uh, as we talk about some of the other action plans as part of examples.

Eric Blake: Awesome. That's a perfect lead-in, and it actually is a good lead-in to my next question as well. Because, you know, many of the women in your study did not want to stop leading, solving problems, making a difference. Again, you just talked about this in your own life. They wanted the freedom to decide what those things would look like next. So what does it mean for a woman to define retirement on her own terms? What does that look like to you?

Kelly Ottman: Right. I think that links to some of the things that women do in their retirement. Um, men tended to, as far as things they did, go back to things that they had done in the past, especially with friends. "I go to the football game, my annual football game, my annual fishing trip," things like that, which is great, and they rekindled friends with that.

Women tended to look forward with this and created groups around things that were their passions. Um, maybe I'm passionate about the theater, and about problems. There's a problem I'm, you know, trying to deal with. You've had, uh, podcasts on how do I care for elder loved ones, dealing with that. Um, so it's around passions and problems primarily that women create groups around, and tend to give their time, energy, talents, and money to.

So there was one woman in my study, she loved, uh, the theater, and she also recognized as she was working or going to the theater, there were a lot of women by themselves. And she's like, "What if we created a club and had a bus to pick up people so they didn't have to deal with parking, they didn't have to deal with going alone?" And so she created a club for single women, and helped deal with the parking issues, and some of the navigation, and sitting by myself with that.

Another woman was a younger woman who was entering retirement, and she's like, "Oh, this menopause thing, it's just driving us crazy." And so she got a group of people who were kind of in that same stage, and started to have a menopause support group because that was a problem. So we see these, uh, recreations in new ways, which gives purpose. Which gives that ability to make a difference, which we talked about in the earlier, the ability to, um, you know, have voice in new ways because they're creating new groups.

Eric Blake: Well, that was actually my next question, so I don't know if maybe you can expand on it any further. But I think it comes back to the conversation about the loss of credibility that came through work, and talking about what women can do to maintain that sense of voice that you just referred to.

Kelly Ottman: Right.

Eric Blake: When they no longer have the title, they no longer have the organization. You've talked about creating new groups to be a part of. Are there other strategies, other successful next steps that you've seen in your research or that you would recommend?

Kelly Ottman: Right. So many of the individuals I interacted with, surveyed, interviewed, boards were important. Now, that doesn't have to be necessarily the for-profit, uh, paid board. It might be not-for-profit boards, uh, things like that. But in that board space, um, over 80% of the individuals that I interviewed and surveyed wanted a board position or had a board position, and I think that's a great way. Because then people would put out on their social media, or when they would introduce themselves at social events, "Hi, I'm a board member." And that raises that level of, "Oh, okay. I'll listen to her now," right?

Um, key to that is you have to start early. I work with a group that that's their sole focus, is women on boards. It's not easy, but it's really something to start early, to put the word out early, like, "I want to be on a board," because it's much harder after we retire. That said, we don't all have to be on a paid board. Any board where you're really allowing yourself to have voice and to make a difference is important.

Now, what's interesting with that, and women had an easier time with that, is on boards, the ability to lead without title. Many times women have led without title, so they have a little bit more experience with that. Meaning I'm a board member, but I can't necessarily tell you what to do because I'm a board member, and I don't have the same type of authority to say, "Eric, make sure to get this done in the next five minutes." Because in the past I was rewarded for, you know, having impatience and making sure I got things done.

Um, so there are some new skills with that, too. Those are some of the ways to do that. I think also reframing how you introduce yourself so that you can say, "I have experience," um, and how we position ourselves. And I also think it's not letting ourselves believe we no longer have that ability to have voice.

Eric Blake: Is it more difficult simply because of the time separation from your work, or is it something tied to that loss of credibility? Because I no longer have the, I can't say I'm the vice president of this, or I was the CEO, so you need to have me on your board.

Kelly Ottman: Right.

Eric Blake: Is that part of it? Or what do you see as the biggest challenge?

Kelly Ottman: And we know that just working on boards, it's easier to get on a board when I already, uh, have a position, especially if it's a paid board, because you bring your company with you. And, you know, I am a part of whatever XYZ company, and the organization's like, "Ooh, I want that company on my board," kind of thing. So you're bringing two things. When you're solo, uh, retired, you're bringing you. So understanding that is important. So sometimes starting early, and then you still bring that with you.

Eric Blake: I think that ties to the next question of thinking about, is there a way to begin separating your identity from your job before retirement instead of waiting until you've actually left? Mm. Or do you even suggest that? How do you think about it?

Kelly Ottman: I do, and I think about it just in how do we introduce ourselves? So interestingly, when asked about the word retirement in my study, most of the people didn't like it. The only people who really liked the word retirement, it was like, "Ooh, I earned it," it tended to be more men, and it was pre-retirees. And then after retirement, it didn't matter gender, it was not necessarily something that they were, you know, thrilled about.

That said, men had less challenge when we, uh, surveyed them than women did, and I think that's that credibility. And part of it is how do I introduce myself? That was one of the questions I asked the interviewees, "How do you introduce yourself?" And the pre-retirees were like, "Oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about that. I don't know." And that was, like, one of those, "I have to think about that, and I need to start thinking about that now."

The people who had retired, they're like, "Oh my gosh, that was such a challenge, and I am still trying to figure it out." Then when I started to look at their LinkedIn, 'cause I know who these people are, very few, like not even a handful of them, had retired on their LinkedIn. They had something else. Board member. They also were very creative about, you know, innovative thinker, uh, tech-focused, you know, leader. So they kept leader somehow in there. Servant leader was a great one that I saw a lot, and they kept that because we've learned to be a leader. We've learned our craft, whatever that is.

How do we pull some of that forward and share who we are in new ways? You know, so I very often will say, "Oh yeah, I'm focused on developing, uh, leadership." Now, I don't have to have a title for that. I can mentor people with that. I love mentoring. I don't get paid for a lot of that, but I can start leading with that. And so, kind of playing with how am I going to lead as I introduce myself to individuals without saying, "This is my title."

And also, I think there's some practice with that. How do we ask others? How do we shift away as a society from just, "Hi, I'm a professor." Like, that's the first thing I say. I'm an executive coach. To something that's more aligned with our purpose, and starting to practice that as I meet you, Eric, for the first time, as I meet others. So we shift the conversations that we're having in general so that they're not so aligned with just some title that's been given to me. We're so much more than that, and how do we reclaim that and really claim our purpose, our values in the way we interact with people, and the way we bring that out of them, too?

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Well, I think financial advisors are lucky in that way. I never introduce myself as a financial advisor, because people's face immediately drops, and they try to start looking where else they can start. Who else can I start talking to? So I've learned not to use that as my title.

Kelly Ottman: So you're already practiced.

Eric Blake: That's right. So, uh, I've talked before on episodes about the roughly 1,000 hours of discretionary time, we'll call it, that a person gains once they actually go into retirement. And for those that are interested, we actually did an episode on this exact topic. That was episode 56: What will you do with your 1,000 hours in retirement? And of course, that can sound exciting when you're thinking about it, but it can also start to feel overwhelming. How do you feel someone can begin deciding how she wants to use that time?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah. I've listened to your episode. It's great. It really made me think about it also. Um, I think there's a couple things. One is, women in general, when they started to look at what's important, what's success, it is, um, aspects of rekindling relationships, and how are relationships a part of that 1,000 hours. It's also rekindling joys, passions that I have, and bringing that forward. And I think it's also looking at maybe, as part of some of those passions, some, um, hobbies and then some of those projects that we might be a part of. How do we lead in new ways as we go forward?

So let me give you some examples. So many individuals, particularly those individuals who have been used to this fast pace, "I have to, you know, get things done," that was actually the number one thing individuals needed to learn in their retirement, number one across the board. It did not matter what gender it was. "How can I be and not do?" Because I'm so used to checking things off and being very quick about it. And so settling into that comfort of being, which leads to patience.

It was one-third of the individuals on free response said, "I need to learn how to be patient," and patient with myself, patient with others. Because, you know, my friends in the volunteer group that I'm a part of, I heard stories about that. Like, they don't get things done very fast. Like, I say that they should get this done, and they don't get them done. Again, women know how to, you know, lead a little bit differently, but they still, it's like it's not going as fast, so patience with others, patience in the home, things like that.

Another interesting thing was long reading. I was like, what's long reading? And they're like, "I know how to read in, you know, snippets. I know how to read something really fast on my phone. Reading a whole book? Oh my gosh, that is, I have to, like, work on that." And so I think that's some of the things of learning patience with ourselves, learning to be okay with a different pace, because I can sit and read a whole book.

Um, you know, one of the women said, "You know, I tell people, 'I'm going to finish my book.' And they're like, 'Oh, you're writing a book?'" She's like, "No, I get to finish a whole book. Like, that's been on my fantasy list for a really long time, just to read a whole book, because I have not had time for that." And so, just sitting and being okay with that.

Some others were just being able to be present with family and friends. Um, there was one who was like, "I know I'm not good at chit-chatting, and I need to build more friends, and I need to, you know, really work on that comfort of, you know, the chit-chatting." And so she knew that created a bit of anxiety. And so what she did is, before her retirement, she would get on the phone while she was driving. Okay, well, it was hands-free, okay? So she won't get into trouble here.

But she would call somebody on the way home, which was a short period of time. It was time-bound. And she would chit-chat. So she would get comfortable with that, so that by the time she was in her retirement, she had gained some comfort with this notion of just chit-chatting. And that helped her to, you know, continue to make friends and have those chit-chatting relationships that she knew she needed to have. And so those are just some tips that maybe, uh, I know I've used and that maybe some of your listeners can use.

Eric Blake: No, that's perfect, because I think a lot of times we talk a lot about practicing retirement, meaning both financially, thinking about, okay, if you've told me that you think you can live on X amount when you get into retirement, maybe for those last 18 to 24 months, let's test that out. Let's see if you can really live on X amount per month, even though you've been making quite a bit more than that.

It also could be, again, practicing the things you want to do. I always kind of throw out the example of, you know, if you think you want to play pickleball when you retire, maybe start taking some pickleball lessons, right?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah.

Eric Blake: From your research, how does practicing affect those decisions and a more effective transition? Or did you just say, "Hey, just get started"?

Kelly Ottman: No, I think whatever we can pull into our retirement, like that practicing of the finances, is so important. Practicing, you know, pull in some friends. Because one of the things that, as a researcher listening to the stories, was the jarring nature of the loss of friends. I thought these were my friends. I knew that there would be a loss. I didn't anticipate how extreme that loss was. Now, maybe a little bit more for men, but still for women.

And being very intentional, who do I want to start pulling in? Really making a list of who are the people who are important to you, and how can you be intentional about connecting with them? And so even myself, you know, who am I going to be very intentional about just having lunch with? You know, not just seeing by the water cooler or whatever it is where we're going to talk about work, but being intentional. So we now have a practice of meeting each other outside the office, and I can pull that forward, or starting some of those clubs.

Health is another one. I cannot tell you how many women didn't take care of their health. Um, some of them, you know, with implications of, "Oh my gosh, I didn't take care of it, and now I'm having to take care of it now." Whatever we can do with health to bring that forward also I think is really important. We're not just going to stop and all of a sudden change our habits. So habits, starting to think about that is helpful. With that, what do I need to start working on now? And then I can build it later on.

The reality is many of us are so busy with so many hats, it's hard, but what's one thing that you could pick, that you could start thinking about, how am I going to do that? The other thing I think we could start doing is creating what I call curiosity lists. And a curiosity list actually comes as one of the tools that we learned as a retirement coach, uh, so I have to give credit to the Retirement Coaches Association. But with that, instead of a bucket list, what are things I'm curious about that I just haven't had time to dig into?

And so literally just having a list, maybe putting it on your refrigerator or on your wall, a whiteboard, you can just start adding. And it doesn't mean that you have to deep dive into it, but it starts to help you think about what might be that spark that I might want to really, you know, build that fire around. Not all of them will be fires. Maybe not all right away, but they'll continue to grow.

And especially if you have other people in your life, what are those little curiosities that you might find connections with somebody else as they see it on your wall? "Oh, what's that? Oh, that's interesting. I'd love to explore that with you." You know? Uh, and so finding some of that, I think, is helpful, too.

Eric Blake: So one of the things I would like to get your thoughts on is the concept of structure in retirement. When people think about retirement, a lot of times it's, "Well, I don't have to listen to my boss anymore. I don't have to get up early. I don't have to do this, or I don't have to do that." But I think that also ultimately presents one of the challenges of, well, if I don't put it into my calendar, I might not or probably won't do that.

So exercise, I always think, is a great example. Put your exercise time in your calendar, even though, again, you're not retired, you're not necessarily having to answer to anybody. But putting those things in your calendar, so if I have to consciously choose not to do that, it's in my calendar, but I'm going to consciously choose. Whereas maybe you're more likely to actually do that thing if it's in your calendar.

Kelly Ottman: Right. And definitely, about a third of the people said, yeah, loss of, you know, that structure, that schedule was one of their fears going into retirement. So definitely, it's a concern. I do think, as you said, when we can start scheduling, so I'm not changing that cadence of, I meet. So I have some people already in my life. We have structured it. I will meet them once a month. I have somebody who, uh, is a mentor of mine. We've been meeting, but it's very structured.

Once a month, we have coffee in the morning, and we really, you know, see that time as sacred. I've started that. There's others that I've started, whatever that is. An aside, though, I will say, one of the things, the practical skills that people needed was how to calendar. So many of the people, they had somebody else do it, or they didn't have the right setup on their machine. So one of the things I would say to help you with that is before you leave your job, get the exact same system.

I had one executive who literally said, "Tell me all the specs I need," went out, bought that, brought it into their IT, and said, "Now set it all up." And they started practicing on their computer and had their new phone, and practiced for a couple months doing both of them. You know, their computer wasn't hooked up to their IT system, so that when they were done, they weren't lost. Uh, because I cannot tell you how many people, once they had to set up their own system, they missed meetings. They were so focused on that.

So that's just a little tip of setting up that IT, all those things, so that you can help yourself with some of that scheduling and actually enjoy the things that you've scheduled instead of having frustrations with the process of scheduling it. But yes, I think that whenever we can do some of that with our health, with our socialization, with our purpose, all of those buckets, um, are important to do.

Eric Blake: And I always like to ask this question. So if there's a woman out here who's listening to us right now, maybe she's three to five years from retirement, or maybe she's even made the transition, but maybe she's feeling overwhelmed, if she spent a lot of time focused on her career or maybe caring for others, what is just one step, or maybe one or two steps, that you think she could take now just to begin preparing for this transition?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah. Sounds really simple. This is what I would say. Find others that you can start talking about this with. Yourself, someone like myself, but also people who are role models. What I found is so many, uh, individuals couldn't identify a role model. They hadn't been looking for it. Find a mentor. Also, women didn't have a lot of mentors with this. Um, but find that. Start having these conversations.

It's so interesting to me that in the interviews so many people said, "I've never thought about this. I've never talked to anybody about this." Talk to your friends about this. Talk to your family about this. Start sharing some of these things that you're concerned about, because going on this journey alone is really hard, and almost 50% of the people that I surveyed didn't have anyone in their support group, a mentor, a role model, a coach, an advisor. That's lonely. And so we don't have to do this alone. So start talking about this.

You don't have to say, "This is the date I'm going to retire." Like, that might not be really wise, so don't do that. But, you know, it should be normal. It should be part of our normal conversation. We talk about that with people who are younger. "What's your journey?" We talk about that with people in their mid years. "What are you going to do next?" Why don't we talk about that in our years when there are so many possibilities, and we want joy in those possibilities?

We need to start having those conversations with joy and not just the dread that I heard when people were like, "Ooh, retirement." It was a bad word. It shouldn't be a bad word. So let's reframe it as, "I'm going to reinvent myself as I look toward my future." So have conversations with people as you reinvent yourself.

Eric Blake: That's perfect. That is perfect. I love that. So Kelly, before we wrap up, where can listeners learn more about you, your research, the services you provide, and where can they connect with you online?

Kelly Ottman: Yeah. Connect with me, uh, on LinkedIn. I'm Kelly Ottman. You'll find links there. I have a website. Leadership Portals is my, uh, consulting area. So it's leadershipportals, with an S, .com. You can connect there. And I really look forward to, uh, anything along that whole leadership development lifespan, including that area as we go forward, as well as just sharing out in places like this. Eric, thank you so much for having this opportunity, because that's the goal. Holding this research in is no benefit to anyone. So the more we can share it, the more others can benefit from it.

Eric Blake: 100% agree. Well, Kelly, thank you for joining me again and for giving us a different way to think about identity, purpose, and life after that career. We'll include your information, contact details, and resources in the show notes at thesimplyretirementpodcast.com. If you've been thinking about what you want your life to look like beyond your career, please consider connecting with Kelly and learning more about her work. Also be sure to follow the podcast so you're notified when new episodes are released. And until next time, please remember, retirement is not the end of the road. It's the start of a new journey.