TRANSCRIPT
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#48 - How to Pay Taxes in Retirement: What You Need to Know
Eric Blake:
Welcome to another episode of the Simply Retirement Podcast, where we want to educate and empower women to live your retirement on your terms. I'm your host, Eric Blake. Today we're going to tackle a very common retirement question, and that is how do you actually pay your taxes in retirement? Before we get to our topic today, let me introduce my amazing producer, Wendy McConnell. Wendy, how are you?
Wendy McConnell:
I'm good. Thank you for having me.
Eric Blake:
Absolutely. So I got a question for you. So I know how big of a fan you are of taxes and that you just enjoy those to no extent. But have you actually thought about when you retire, when you don't have a paycheck, how do you actually pay taxes in retirement?
Wendy McConnell:
Oh, I assume I can upload them through the computer to the tax paid security account.
Eric Blake:
Yeah, something like that. We'll go to a little bit more detail on the episode here to clear some things up, but good, yeah, let pay attention and we'll go from there, how's that?
Wendy McConnell:
Okay, because I need help, it's clear.
Eric Blake:
Well, that's the case. By the time this episode is actually going live, we're going to be just through tax season, everybody's favorite time of the year. But when you think about this, again, it is one of those questions that if I don't have a paycheck, I don't have a way to pay Uncle Sam, how do I do it? And that's what we want to make sure that we help with. Now, I want to make sure we remind everybody that tax planning is going to be different from everyone. Tax preparation, make sure that you consult your qualified tax advisor, a financial advisor, hopefully one that understands tax planning, but you want to make sure, of course, that you're making the best decisions for your specific situation. So let's hop into this. First thing is you got to be aware that the IRS wants you to pay taxes as you receive income.
So that's what's called a pay as you go system. So as you're earning money, they're expecting you to be paying taxes as well at the same time. Now, obviously, again, we talked about if you're working and you're receiving a paycheck, then typically taxes are going to be automatically withheld from that paycheck. But even when you no longer have a paycheck, uncle Sam says, Hey, you still have to pay taxes as you're earning this income. So there's really a couple of key ways that we do that. I'm going to walk you through those, give you some examples. Hopefully this will help clear things up as far as how this actually works.
So the first thing you can actually do is you can actually set up your own tax withholding. Now, whether that's social security, if you started your social security benefits, you can have taxes withheld from your social security benefit. If you've got a pension, you can set up tax withholding from your pension, or you can even have taxes withdrawn from your portfolio distributions, your IRA distributions. Now I have to be clear about, I want to clarify that. So retirement accounts, IRAs, Roth IRAs, 4 0 1 Ks, you can have taxes withheld from those distributions. So that's typically the first option you have.
Wendy McConnell:
I wanted to ask, does that sort of like with your paycheck withholdings where it could be less or more at the end of the year you might owe or you might get some money back?
Eric Blake:
It is, and that's really where, and we're going to definitely touch on this as kind of one of our action items as we get towards the end is tax planning becomes so critical, especially in your retirement years because you want to do tax projections and we'll touch on how that works here in just a little bit. But definitely yes. So you can under withhold and over withhold just like you, when you are working, you can do the exact same thing can happen in your retirement years. And again, you have to be aware of. Biggest thing is if you underpay, you're potentially looking at penalties and interest and all that fun stuff as well. Okay, so that's the first thing. Tax withholding from your different sources of income. Second option you have is making estimated tax payments, and you could do that throughout the year. So if you're maybe self-employed, you may be already familiar with these, but you have that option in retirement as well.
And I want to make sure as we go through this, we're going to distinguish between the advantages and disadvantages of both of these different strategies. So first thing is tax withholding. One of the things actually a lot of people aren't aware of is you can actually have taxes withheld from your social security benefit, and there's a form W four V, which you have to actually send through your local office. It's actually not something that you can do online or anything that you can print the form off online, but you have to provide that to your local office, and that's what tells the Social Security Administration that you want to have taxes withheld. Now, here's the interesting part and why they chose this. I have no idea, but it is what it is. You can have actually choose to have 0% withheld, no taxes withheld at all, but then you can have 7%, 10%, 12%, or 22% withheld from your social security benefit.
Now here again, kind of back to the tax planning aspect is that's not your tax rate. Obviously those might sound like tax rates, but they're not specific because that's going to be a percentage of your benefit. So if you choose 10% and your benefit is $2,000, it's going to be 10% of that or $200, that's withheld. So again, you got to be aware of how much is going to be withheld. Now here's the other fun thing that they've somehow incorporated is that we're holding from your social security benefit. The percentage is after your Medicare Part B premium is deducted. Part B premiums aren't deductible unless you're potentially a self-employed. You're still self-employed while you're receiving your benefits. Why they chose to do that, I have no idea. The Medicare Part B is not a deductible expense just on its own, but the withholding from your social security benefit is after that amount is deducted.
Wendy McConnell:
So you're going to owe more money because they're not counting that as money that you're receiving.
Eric Blake:
Not necessarily, but you need to be aware of that. So when you choose your percentage, that could be the difference in saying, well, should I do 10% or 12%?
Again,
A lot of this is going to be based on your other income sources, and this is good where you're looking at the entire picture, not just social security. Now, again, keep in mind that if social security is your only income source, you have nothing else out there, you could probably go with zero. But if you have some other income sources, IRA distributions or if you're working or whatever it might be, that's when you may want to think about having a percentage of your social security benefit withheld for taxes.
Okay,
Couple other key points. There is no state tax withholding from Social Security. So a lot of states actually don't tax you on social security, but you want to be very specific and look at your state requirements. Is social security taxable in your state? Just know that you may need to take care of state taxes on your own. You also then have, we look at if you have a pension or if you have annuities, you can have distribution, you can have withholding set up from those depending on the source, you may be able to have that set up online. Like for example here in Texas, like Texas Tier teacher retirement system, you can actually go online and set up your withholding, but that is an option as well. If you've got an annuity and there's a taxable component to an annuity distribution that you're receiving, again, you have the option of setting up withholdings from those sources as well.
Okay,
Next one. In most, this is one that maybe people may have heard of, but they're not quite sure how it works. But that again, you can have taxes withheld from your IRA distributions and other retirement accounts. So if you're taking withdrawals from a traditional IRA or a 401k, you can choose how much federal and state tax to have withheld, and that's a key thing you want to be aware of as well. So again, depending on your tax situation, again, you can choose to have zero withheld from your IRA distributions or your retirement account distributions, but you can choose these specific percentages. There's no guidelines or no requirements as far as what that percentage is. So again, you want to look at your specific situation, say, well, should I be withholding 10%? Should I be withholding 15, 20, 25? So you can choose that specific percentage to have withheld. When you're receiving distributions from retirement accounts,
Wendy McConnell:
You say that we can choose zero. Do we need to do anything at all if we want to have the taxes not taken out of our income source?
Eric Blake:
You don't necessarily need to do anything. So typically in this case, let's say you've got you working with your custodian, whether it's Fidelity or Vanguard, whoever it might be, and you think, okay, if I'm going to have a certain amount of income, I know I'm going to have to pay taxes. I want to have those taxes withheld from my distributions.
You would work with them to indicate what that percentage should be. Now again, whether you're doing it on your own, you would have to come up with that, a percentage on your own. Ideally you're working with a tax advisor, you're working with a financial advisor that can provide you some guidance. So that's really one of the things that when you think about tax planning and looking at, say for example, your average tax rate versus your marginal tax rate. So marginal is what that last dollar of income is going to be taxed at. That's the one you hear the tax brackets, that's what we're referring to. So whether you're in the 10% tax bracket or the 12% tax bracket or the 22% tax bracket or so on, that's your marginal tax rate. That's the last dollar of income you have. What rate is it going to be taxed at?
That's the marginal rate, but that's not your average. So even though you might be in the 22% tax bracket, you might have a 10% average. So what percentage of my total income am I paying to Uncle Sam? So you might be in the 22% marginal bracket, but only the 10% have a 10% average rate. And that's where you'd want to get guidance either from a financial advisor or from your tax advisor on how much should I be withholding from my IRA distributions. So in that example, if you said, well, I want to the whole 22%, it might actually be too much,
Wendy McConnell:
And then you get a refund check at the end of the year like we did with the taxes.
Eric Blake:
No. So what happens is at the end of the year, if you've had taxes without, and if you take distributions period from your retirement accounts, you're going to get a 10 99 R form on that form. It's going to say, how much did I take out of my account? How much of that did I pay to Uncle Sam? That's going to be on the 10 99 R form that you receive at the end of the year if you're actually taking distributions from your retirement accounts,
Okay?
And that the amount that's going to Uncle Sam is going to be dictated by you. So again, that's where you would have to decide, do I want zero? Do I not want to have anything taken out of my retirement discount distributions or do I want 10% or 15% or 20%? You have to choose. That could be the tricky part because it's very easy to under withhold or over withhold if you haven't done some type of tax projection. And that's again, where the guidance from a financial advisor, CPA tax advisor can be really valuable to help you stay as close to that tax liability as you can get.
Got it.
Now, here's one tricky part that, and again, many people aren't aware of. If you are taking money from a company retirement plan, so think 401k, 4 0 3 B, 4 57 plans, all these different employer based plans, and it's not a rollover, you're not taking that money out of that account and enrolling it to an IRA. Any distributions you take there is a mandatory 20% federal tax withholding. So if you said, Hey, I'm going to take, for whatever reason, I'm going to take a hundred thousand dollars out of my 401k, it's still with my employer or former employer, I'm going to take it out of the 401k, I take a hundred thousand dollars out, they're going to have to withhold 20% or $20,000. That's a mandatory withholding. Okay? So you take hundred thousand, you request a hundred thousand dollars distribution, you're getting 80,000 into your bank account,
Wendy McConnell:
Okay, where's this 20,000 going?
Eric Blake:
That's going Uncle Sam. It's mandatory withholding mandatory. You take money out of a company, an employer plan, 401k, 4 57, 4 0 3 B, there's a mandatory 20% tax withholding for federal
Wendy McConnell:
Purposes. Does that include if you're transferring accounts to another retirement account or if just if you're taking out cash.
Eric Blake:
So think of it as though, okay, they're cutting me a check. My 401k plan, X, Y, Z employer, they're going to send me a hundred thousand dollars from my 401k and I'm going to deposit it in my bank account. You request the distribution for a hundred thousand dollars. They mandatory withhold 20%. I get 80,000 deposited in my bank account.
Wendy McConnell:
Okay, I'm very confused for, is this the 10% penalty you get for taking it
Eric Blake:
Early? Nope. It is a mandatory IRS withholding from company retirement plans. They must withhold 20% in taxes regardless of whether it's the accurate amount or not, doesn't matter.
Wendy McConnell:
So everything that I've put into my 401k over the last 20 years when I go to transfer that account after retirement
Eric Blake:
Again, transfer and take a distribution are two different things
Wendy McConnell:
When I decide to take money out.
Eric Blake:
Right? So you take a check, they issue you a check in your name, or they direct deposit it into your bank account. That is a distribution. They are required to withhold 20%.
Wendy McConnell:
Okay, so does that mean that satisfies the taxes that are due?
Eric Blake:
It may or may not. That's the tricky part. So if that 20% is not enough, let's say I'm in a high tax bracket or it maybe, again, if I was taking a hundred thousand out, that might put me in a higher tax bracket. So maybe I'm in the 32% tax bracket now because I took a hundred thousand dollars out and maybe I'm making a hundred, $150,000 and for whatever reason, again, I chose to take that money from my 401k, they only withhold 20%, but I might be in a very much high tax bracket. That may not be enough.
Or there's actually an example I'll share with a client that came to us about three years ago. She was in a situation where her husband had recently retired. She hadn't worked in quite a while. She had a special needs son. He unfortunately passed away very shortly after he retired. He was in his early sixties. She was in her later fifties, but not 59 and a half, which is a key to this story here. So she didn't have access because he had started social security, but she wasn't old enough to start receiving survivor benefits, so she had no income, and because he had retired, she also had no health insurance. So in that circumstance, what we were able to do is say, well, obviously because she's not going to have very much income this year, 20% withholding going to be way too high.
So we said, okay, how are we going to solve this problem? We said, okay, well here's the way we can go. We can take that money. We can roll the money from the 401k from his 401k into an inherited IRA, which then at that point gives her access pre 59 and a half inherited IRAs. There's no age restriction. There's not that same 59 and a half. So at that point, she was able to take enough out to get health insurance through a CA Obamacare. She was able to take enough out just to meet the qualifications to get health insurance. But that was it. And actually in that case, because in the year that if you lose a spouse and let's say if it's 2025 in that same tax year, you still get the file. Mary finally jointly even if your spouse passes away. So for her, we were able to take enough out so that ultimately the distribution, there was no tax on it because what the deduction was high enough that it would basically tax free, but it gave her enough income to say, okay, I can get enough income to qualify for health insurance through a CA, and that gives her what she needed.
But again, had she taken out directly from the 401k what she could have technically done, but they would've held 20% of whatever the amount. So either she would've had to taken way more out, or she may have had to wait until tax time to file her taxes and get a refund, which she would've gotten, but she wouldn't have got that money until April. And this is we're talking midyear. So he passed away, I want to say in March I think of that year. And so this is midyear. We're trying to figure out what do we do? How do we make sure that number one, she can get health insurance and that she's got some sources of income. So in that case, we were able to avoid the 20% mandatory withholding by rolling it to an inherited IRA where we could either choose to have taxes withheld, but in her case, it was more appropriate to have zero withheld because she was going to be basically at a zero tax bracket.
Okay.
That's an example of where, again, understanding these rules, again, I talk about this a lot about when you're working with a financial advisor, you got to make sure if you're in these retirement years that you work with a financial advisor that understands these rules.
Wendy McConnell:
You've convinced me
Eric Blake:
Good enough. Awesome. Yeah. But yeah, it's very tricky. So many people don't know him. We had another situation, several, this has been several years ago where she, again, husband passed away, she contacted the custodian. They said, okay, yeah, we're just going to send you a check. Just cut her a check right there, 20% tax withholding cut the again issue, I want to say it's like $125,000 or so. So she gets net of the 20% and she's like, well, I dunno what to do with this. But in that point we said, okay, well our options are, it's been less than 60 days since it happened. In her case, we did a 60 day rollover, so we put the money back, but she had to come up with a 20%.
Right? So it's again, very tricky. So again, had she not come up with a 20%, you say, let's say make me easy math, they sent her a check, they issued a distribution for 125,000 withheld, 20% of that I, hold on, let me do different math on that. Make this a little bit easier. Let's do hundred thousand. I'm going to go back to my a hundred thousand example. So a hundred thousand, they issue a check, are they issue a distribution for a hundred thousand dollars, withhold 20%. So she gets a check for 80,000. But to avoid any tax implications, to do a 60 day rollover, you got 60 days to put that money back, but you got to put the whole hundred, you got to put the whole a hundred thousand out or that 20,000 becomes taxable. So they send the 20,000 Uncle Sam, but now the 20,000 is also taxable to you.
Wendy McConnell:
So this is why you have to have money to save money. Right,
Eric Blake:
Right. And again, it can be very tricky, but again, understanding these rules, whether again, tax advisor, financial advisor, that somebody that has experience with dealing with these issues.
Wendy McConnell:
Well, and like you said, if somebody had talked to someone like you first, they would've not had the check cut that way to begin with. Correct.
Eric Blake:
Right.
Wendy McConnell:
Okay.
Eric Blake:
And what's funny, and again, I don't want to bash on custodians too much, but even sometimes you call a custodian who's holding the money, they don't always know the rules either. So that's the tricky part. In her case, she called, she did the right thing, but she got the wrong guidance because I dunno whether it was just easier, I dunno what the circumstances were, why she was told, but they just cut her. They said, well, we will just send you the money. Okay, well, probably not the best route to go.
Wendy McConnell:
I'm not even sure I should be saying this, but I was talking to a custodian and they literally were looking it up on Google.
Eric Blake:
That's not what chat GPD is for Google search. Right? I was like, are you using Google? I could do that. Right.
Wendy McConnell:
So anyway,
Eric Blake:
Yeah, and there's, again, there's a lot of reasons. Sometimes custodians, they don't want to deal with inherited accounts. There's all kinds of reasons behind it. But ultimately, again, that's where we come in and say, okay, we want to provide this education. So the right, ultimately, hopefully that's what it's all about, is just asking the right question. Knowing which questions to ask is critical. Okay. Alright, so I think we beat the withholding part of this to death. So let's talk about quarterly payments. So this is where you want to be aware that if you've got income that you don't have a withholding option for, let's think about your investment earnings or rental income, things like that where there's no way to really have taxes withheld. So if maybe you've got a large stock portfolio or you've got a diversified mutual fund portfolio outside of any type of retirement accounts, it's just in a brokerage account. Well, if you have dividends, you have interest or you have capital gains that you've generated through selling some of those assets, there is no way to automatically send some portion of that to Uncle Sam. So that's where you might think about making these estimated quarterly payments.
So the payments, I have specific due dates, and that's again key I talked about at the very beginning. The idea is we want to match our income with our tax liability. So you want to make these tax payments as this income is being generated. So the payment dates typically, unless sometimes they fall on a weekend, on a Saturday or Sunday or whatever it might be, but the dates the first quarter, whatever you've made in the first quarter, ideally you want to make the first tax payment on April 15th for that first quarter. Then it's June 15th, September 15th, January 15th. So January 15th is the last payment. So January 15th, 2025 was the last fourth quarter payment for 2024.
Now, there's a few rules that can help you. Again, this is so important to talk to a tax advisor or financial advisor. The hardest part about making estimated payments is you got to try to identify what is my actual tax liability going to be? And so there's some rules that help you protect you a little bit. And for example, there's something called a safe harbor rule, which says, okay, if you pay typically at least 90% of your total tax bill throughout the year, then you're probably going to be okay, meaning that you would no interest in penalties as long as you pay at least 90% of what your total tax bill would be for the year. But there's a lot of other different rules as far as higher income. There's some different rules around if you make above certain amount, all those types of things.
So again, especially if you're making quarterly payment, it's very important to talk to your tax advisor, your financial advisor to make sure you're on the right track. Now, here's another thing that you want to think about. If you've made quarterly payments, one of the challenges again is trying to match the income with the tax bill. One of the things that's very helpful withholding from IRAs as an example, is even if you withhold from your IRA the very last day of the year of the tax year, it basically is looked at as though you withheld throughout the year.
So here's how, I'll give you an example. So if this makes some sense. So if you're above a certain age right now it's in between 73 or 75 and you've got required distribution. If you're over that age and you've got required distributions from your retirement accounts, let's say you didn't withhold anything without, you didn't make quarterly payments, you didn't do anything, anything like that, but at the end of the year, you still got to take your required distribution as long as you said, okay, well here's what my number is, here's what I should have paid in. If you can have that withheld from your IRA at the end of the year, even if it's a hundred percent, we actually have someone who every year waits till the very end and he might have the entire required distribution sent to Uncle Sam. And by doing that, uncle Sam looks at it, the IRS looks at it as though he's paid throughout the year, even though he paid at the very end of the year.
So that's where tax withholding from retirement accounts and even from social security, some of these other sources, but more specifically from retirement accounts, can be really valuable, especially if you end up finding yourself coming in short, maybe you did make quarterly payments but you didn't make enough and you had more income that you thought than you thought you did. Something along those lines. You could say, well, I can catch up by having taxes withheld from my IRA account. And again, it's looked at just as though you made equal payments throughout the tax year. That's really important.
Wendy McConnell:
All right, so I mean, I know that you say it depends on the person and everybody's situation, but do you have a preference personally of whether if you have the option to have them deducted automatically or to pay them on your own?
Eric Blake:
I think it is very individualized, and what I would say is you want to look at your income sources and where the optimal place is. So for example, if you have taxes with health from Social Security, somebody might choose to have taxes withheld from Social Security versus having it withheld from your IRA account. Why? Because the less you have to take out of your IRA account, the longer it might last. So let's say maybe I needed, I've got social security that's $2,000 a month and I've got, I need an extra $3,000 a month from my IRA account. Well, if I have taxes withheld from my social security, maybe that means I only need to take 3000 out of my IRA versus saying, well, if I do it the other way around, maybe I have to take $3,500 a month out of my ira, send $500 in Uncle Sam, and now I get my 3000,
Well, that's $500 extra per month. That's coming out of my IRA. Whereas if I said, Hey, well maybe I can withhold from my social security instead because it doesn't get impacted by, there's not a value. It is what it is. So that's where you really got to look at your individual situation. And tax withholdings are very, in most cases, tax withholdings. If you use them, I would say you don't use 'em strategically. So depending on your income sources, a lot of times, yes, it's easier to have taxes withheld from those IRA distributions versus having to worry about quarterly payments because again, it's all an estimate. But again, that's where the tax projections, and that's going to be one of our to-do items or action items here in just a bit, is again, working with someone who can do some tax projections for you so you have a better idea of what that tax liability might be.
Wendy McConnell:
All right, let's do it. Let's hear about these action items.
Eric Blake:
So first thing is, again, one of the things, whether it's to do, you're doing it on your own. If you're do it yourselfer or you've got a tax advisor, cpa, somebody can do this for you. Or in our case, for example, we do what we call our annual tax review meeting, and we do that before the end of the year, but we start that process early on in the year where we're running tax projections each year, and then we want to coordinate that with our investment plan, coordinate that with our income plan, because we're sitting here in relatively early 2025, the decisions we're making right now are going to impact what your tax situation looks like for this year. If you've waited until April 15th, it's too late. So you got to start the process early, whether you're doing, you're making quarterly payments or you're going to have taxes withheld from your retirement accounts.
Whatever you decide is the best strategy for you, you need to have an idea of what that looks like. Now, don't wait until you're preparing your taxes to try to figure that out. So that's step one. Also, again, just reminding that, and we're just going to recap a few of these things. So again, IRS expects you to pay as you receive your income, not just a tax time. You can't just wait until April 15th to pay your tax bill because at that point, you're most likely going to incur interest and penalties on that. Again, you can have taxes withheld from your social security, from your pensions, from your IRAs, your 4 0 1 Ks, or by making estimated payments, which of those you choose need to, again, be very individualized based on your specific situation and what your income sources are. Talked about this, we've beat this one down a lot because I think it's so important, but if you take money out of a company retirement plan, like a 401k mandatory, 20% withholding, that may or may not be accurate for your situation.
You may be in a higher tax bracket, you might be in a lower tax bracket, so you want to make sure that you are aware that that's what's going to happen, and then adjust around that. If you need to withholding, obviously it can be a very smart strategy since it's, again, as far as withholding from IRA, accounts can be a very effective strategy because again, it's looked at as paid evenly throughout the year, even if you do it at the very end. Last thing is, again, again, please talk a qualified tax advisor. Talk to your financial advisor, especially one that understands tax planning and can help you with these tax projections throughout the year so you can make the best decision for yourself. Preferably, what you want to actually do is have your CPA, your tax advisor working with your financial advisor, at least the in communication. That's one of the things that's very important for us, is that we stay in communication with our clients', CPAs or their tax preparers, so they're on the same page. And that's what you want to have. You want to have your team working together and being into communication so that I'm not telling the client one thing and then CPA's telling 'em something else, making sure that everybody's on the same page. You want your professionals on your team working together.
Alright,
Anything else you can think of? I know, again, I know taxes are your favorite topic, but
Wendy McConnell:
Well, I mean, the crazy thing is about this, you learn all this stuff and you follow it and you understand it, and then they change everything.
Eric Blake:
That does happen. But again, that's why I like reading all the tax stuff, and that's why
Wendy McConnell:
You're a nerd.
Eric Blake:
Very much I self-proclaimed tax nerd. I am good with that.
Wendy McConnell:
Okay.
Eric Blake:
I say I do it. I do it. So you don't have to.
Wendy McConnell:
Yes, we appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Eric Blake:
I hope if you found this episode helpful, please be sure you subscribe, share it with someone that might benefit. For all the links and resources for this episode, you can visit www.thesimplyretirementpodcast.com. If you've got a tax planning question, you have some questions about how to best handle your specific tax situation, feel free to hop on there. You can go to www.thesimplyretirementpodcast.com/ask Eric, I'd be happy to answer your question on an upcoming episode. Until next time, please remember, retirement is not the end of the road. It is the start of a new journey.
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